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	<title>Comments on: Over-Stabilization of Bullets &#8212; Why Is Too Much Spin a Problem?</title>
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	<link>https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2013/07/over-stabilization-of-bullets-why-is-too-much-spin-a-problem/</link>
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		<title>By: Grumpy Pants</title>
		<link>https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2013/07/over-stabilization-of-bullets-why-is-too-much-spin-a-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-61666</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Grumpy Pants]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2025 03:54:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/?p=52303#comment-61666</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The physics say yes and no, an Sg too high will cause the axis of angular momentum to become very hard to move. In ideal way the axis follows basic trajectory from muzzle to target under the force of gravity. When Sg is very high the angle of the axis will remain fairly constant through path of trajectory, hence it lands on belly instead of nose direct. Muzzle FPS and angle are major factors in trajectory path. High angle means big arc in path and less reach, whereas no angle means less arc with more reach, and there exists the ideal angle for max reach, noting that changing angle means varying the impact energy. That said, all bullets will self destruct when RPM&#039;s go north of some RPM, jacketed bullets are about 295,000. Can a jacketed bullet reach the critical Sg number before RPM&#039;s reach 295,000? The answer to that is most bullets can&#039;t. However, designing a bullet (projectile) that can spin faster than 295,000rpm is doable. Also to note, any rotational momentum will resist axis angle change in trajectory path, but at the lower RPM&#039;s it becomes harder to notice. As example, if the bullet strikes a vertical plate at a down angle of 22.456deg, and you then add some RPM&#039;s and it strikes at 22.452deg, we would call that &quot;no change&quot;. So we conclude that the bullets we fire out of small-arms will likely not reach an Sg number where we would notice a belly landing. An example where gyro is so big that it&#039;s axis remains constant, are the gyros found in small aircraft. Their angular momentum is so large that not even a fast large angle dive will change the gyro axis. We don&#039;t see lateral rotation of a bullet gyro because the gravity force is applied evenly across full axis of bullet. Precession is a neat thing. There are of course other forces at work in a flying bullet. Air friction, and this is related to bullet roughness from a typical 6 or 5R rifling, along with RPM&#039;s. All of this characterizes the pitch and yaw of the projectile throughout it&#039;s flight. Happy physics folks.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The physics say yes and no, an Sg too high will cause the axis of angular momentum to become very hard to move. In ideal way the axis follows basic trajectory from muzzle to target under the force of gravity. When Sg is very high the angle of the axis will remain fairly constant through path of trajectory, hence it lands on belly instead of nose direct. Muzzle FPS and angle are major factors in trajectory path. High angle means big arc in path and less reach, whereas no angle means less arc with more reach, and there exists the ideal angle for max reach, noting that changing angle means varying the impact energy. That said, all bullets will self destruct when RPM&#8217;s go north of some RPM, jacketed bullets are about 295,000. Can a jacketed bullet reach the critical Sg number before RPM&#8217;s reach 295,000? The answer to that is most bullets can&#8217;t. However, designing a bullet (projectile) that can spin faster than 295,000rpm is doable. Also to note, any rotational momentum will resist axis angle change in trajectory path, but at the lower RPM&#8217;s it becomes harder to notice. As example, if the bullet strikes a vertical plate at a down angle of 22.456deg, and you then add some RPM&#8217;s and it strikes at 22.452deg, we would call that &#8220;no change&#8221;. So we conclude that the bullets we fire out of small-arms will likely not reach an Sg number where we would notice a belly landing. An example where gyro is so big that it&#8217;s axis remains constant, are the gyros found in small aircraft. Their angular momentum is so large that not even a fast large angle dive will change the gyro axis. We don&#8217;t see lateral rotation of a bullet gyro because the gravity force is applied evenly across full axis of bullet. Precession is a neat thing. There are of course other forces at work in a flying bullet. Air friction, and this is related to bullet roughness from a typical 6 or 5R rifling, along with RPM&#8217;s. All of this characterizes the pitch and yaw of the projectile throughout it&#8217;s flight. Happy physics folks.</p>
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		<title>By: Elon Muskox</title>
		<link>https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2013/07/over-stabilization-of-bullets-why-is-too-much-spin-a-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-61608</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Elon Muskox]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Feb 2025 00:42:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/?p=52303#comment-61608</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[From Bryan Litz&#039;s Applied Ballistics for Long-Range Shooting, Chapter 10, Bullet Stability: 

&quot;Another way that stability is believed to affect bullet flight is the idea of over stabilization. The theory goes:

&quot;A bullet that is spun excessively fast will not trace with the flight path. As a result, when the bullet drops on the downrange leg of the trajectory, it will retain a nose high orientation, which presents more surface area to the oncoming air flow, and causes increased drag, thereby reducing the effective BC.

&quot;Although there is some truth to this statement, the increase in drag is commonly believed to be much greater than it actually is. It&#039;s true that higher stability levels do produce a more rigid spin axis that tends to resist bending as the bullet follows its curved trajectory. However, even bullets with very high stability factors will still trace (sometimes called track) very well with the trajectory, the angle will only lag a little more than a slower spinning bullet. An exception to this statement is for very high angles of fire, near 90 degrees, where the bullet would have to turn its axis abruptly at the apex of the trajectory. Failing to trace is a consideration for artillery shells fired at high angles because if the round doesn&#039;t trace, it won\u2019t hit the ground point first which is required to activate the fuse and detonate the charge. Bear in mind that even for such high angles of fire, failure to trace is still uncommon. For the small angles of even the longest range small arms trajectories, it is very easy for the axis of the bullet to trace with the trajectory....&quot;

Case closed.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From Bryan Litz&#8217;s Applied Ballistics for Long-Range Shooting, Chapter 10, Bullet Stability: </p>
<p>&#8220;Another way that stability is believed to affect bullet flight is the idea of over stabilization. The theory goes:</p>
<p>&#8220;A bullet that is spun excessively fast will not trace with the flight path. As a result, when the bullet drops on the downrange leg of the trajectory, it will retain a nose high orientation, which presents more surface area to the oncoming air flow, and causes increased drag, thereby reducing the effective BC.</p>
<p>&#8220;Although there is some truth to this statement, the increase in drag is commonly believed to be much greater than it actually is. It&#8217;s true that higher stability levels do produce a more rigid spin axis that tends to resist bending as the bullet follows its curved trajectory. However, even bullets with very high stability factors will still trace (sometimes called track) very well with the trajectory, the angle will only lag a little more than a slower spinning bullet. An exception to this statement is for very high angles of fire, near 90 degrees, where the bullet would have to turn its axis abruptly at the apex of the trajectory. Failing to trace is a consideration for artillery shells fired at high angles because if the round doesn&#8217;t trace, it won\u2019t hit the ground point first which is required to activate the fuse and detonate the charge. Bear in mind that even for such high angles of fire, failure to trace is still uncommon. For the small angles of even the longest range small arms trajectories, it is very easy for the axis of the bullet to trace with the trajectory&#8230;.&#8221;</p>
<p>Case closed.</p>
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		<title>By: I have</title>
		<link>https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2013/07/over-stabilization-of-bullets-why-is-too-much-spin-a-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-61252</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[I have]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2024 19:32:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/?p=52303#comment-61252</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have shot 40gr VMAX .224 from a 16&quot; 1:7 at 3400fps and had moa results at 100y. I am now trying to load for coyote killing with 224 Valkyrie. I will again push the envelope with Sierra 55gr GameKings going 3400fps from a 20&quot; or 22&quot; Wilson Combat or Bison Armory 1:6.5 twist barrel. This should be fun. If the 55gr doesn&#039;t work well, I&#039;ll try 69gr SMK and then 77gr SMK.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have shot 40gr VMAX .224 from a 16&#8243; 1:7 at 3400fps and had moa results at 100y. I am now trying to load for coyote killing with 224 Valkyrie. I will again push the envelope with Sierra 55gr GameKings going 3400fps from a 20&#8243; or 22&#8243; Wilson Combat or Bison Armory 1:6.5 twist barrel. This should be fun. If the 55gr doesn&#8217;t work well, I&#8217;ll try 69gr SMK and then 77gr SMK.</p>
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		<title>By: Vsevolod</title>
		<link>https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2013/07/over-stabilization-of-bullets-why-is-too-much-spin-a-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-60130</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Vsevolod]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Oct 2021 20:02:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/?p=52303#comment-60130</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[FALSE. What makes you think that bullet would nosedive in a first place?! If it did that we would not even need spin-stabilization. Bullet is aerodynamically unstable, if you drop it from height it will fall tail forward. And yes, it will fly with higher angle of attack at the end of trajectory, and it is cause for yaw of repose.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FALSE. What makes you think that bullet would nosedive in a first place?! If it did that we would not even need spin-stabilization. Bullet is aerodynamically unstable, if you drop it from height it will fall tail forward. And yes, it will fly with higher angle of attack at the end of trajectory, and it is cause for yaw of repose.</p>
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		<title>By: BFD</title>
		<link>https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2013/07/over-stabilization-of-bullets-why-is-too-much-spin-a-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-56142</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[BFD]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2018 19:42:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/?p=52303#comment-56142</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What is the answer Mr Litz?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is the answer Mr Litz?</p>
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		<title>By: James A. Boatright</title>
		<link>https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2013/07/over-stabilization-of-bullets-why-is-too-much-spin-a-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-54336</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[James A. Boatright]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jan 2018 21:09:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/?p=52303#comment-54336</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Actually, Bryan&#039;s picture illustrating coning motion is all wrong. The spin-stabilized rifle bullet cones around the mean trajectory with its nose angled INWARD toward that trajectory. I am a physicist. My Coning Theory of Bullet Motions is fully supported by physics. The coning motion of the bullet&#039;s CG about the mean trajectory is driven by the aerodynamic forces of lift and drag.

I have also recently received a U.S. patent for a new monolithic copper Ultra-Low-Drag rifle bullet design. Dan Warner made a first production run of these bullets just before Christmas. David Tubb just test-fired them for BC measurement over his 995.7-yard range instrumented with an Oehler System 88 Chronograph/Acoustic Sensor set-up. These 225-grain 338-caliber bullets measured 0.794 for BC(G1) at 65 degrees F. Average MV was 3378 fps and time-of-flight was 1.068 msec. The average airspeed over the 995.7-yards was 2766 fps (Mach 2.463), allowing for the 30.8 fps tailwind. He used a 35-inch Schneider barrel with a 7.5-inch twist rate. McDRAG estimated a BC(G1) of just 0.703 for this Mach 2.5 airspeed. The extra 12.9 percent drag reduction is attributable to &quot;over-stabilizing&quot; these bullets with an initial Sg of 2.75 (McGYRO and Miller). The coning angle was absolute minimum, and the bullets were flying essentially straight nose forward. There was no yaw-drag over 1,000 yards. McDRAG estimates are calculated to replicate outdoor test firing results for initial Sg=1.5 and about 2 to 5 degree average coning angles. The Oehler system calculated target impact speed at 2340 fps (Mach 2.1). David did not report any &quot;nose-high&quot; bullet impact prints. He did mention firing a 5-inch 5-shot group in early load development. 

At 2,000 yards these bullets would be transonic and possibly be flying &quot;nose high&quot; at impact with a significant &quot;Pitch-of-Repose&quot; attitude angle. 
I am going to try a 6.6-inch twist (20 calibers) 338 barrel on my 338 Lapua Magnum test rifle.

EDITOR: The illustration used in the original article is NOT from Applied Ballistics. As noted, this is a diagram from the University of Utah Health Sciences Library Firearm Ballistics Tutorial. It is deliberately very basic and is designed to illustrate in very gross terms, basic terminology such as yaw.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, Bryan&#8217;s picture illustrating coning motion is all wrong. The spin-stabilized rifle bullet cones around the mean trajectory with its nose angled INWARD toward that trajectory. I am a physicist. My Coning Theory of Bullet Motions is fully supported by physics. The coning motion of the bullet&#8217;s CG about the mean trajectory is driven by the aerodynamic forces of lift and drag.</p>
<p>I have also recently received a U.S. patent for a new monolithic copper Ultra-Low-Drag rifle bullet design. Dan Warner made a first production run of these bullets just before Christmas. David Tubb just test-fired them for BC measurement over his 995.7-yard range instrumented with an Oehler System 88 Chronograph/Acoustic Sensor set-up. These 225-grain 338-caliber bullets measured 0.794 for BC(G1) at 65 degrees F. Average MV was 3378 fps and time-of-flight was 1.068 msec. The average airspeed over the 995.7-yards was 2766 fps (Mach 2.463), allowing for the 30.8 fps tailwind. He used a 35-inch Schneider barrel with a 7.5-inch twist rate. McDRAG estimated a BC(G1) of just 0.703 for this Mach 2.5 airspeed. The extra 12.9 percent drag reduction is attributable to &#8220;over-stabilizing&#8221; these bullets with an initial Sg of 2.75 (McGYRO and Miller). The coning angle was absolute minimum, and the bullets were flying essentially straight nose forward. There was no yaw-drag over 1,000 yards. McDRAG estimates are calculated to replicate outdoor test firing results for initial Sg=1.5 and about 2 to 5 degree average coning angles. The Oehler system calculated target impact speed at 2340 fps (Mach 2.1). David did not report any &#8220;nose-high&#8221; bullet impact prints. He did mention firing a 5-inch 5-shot group in early load development. </p>
<p>At 2,000 yards these bullets would be transonic and possibly be flying &#8220;nose high&#8221; at impact with a significant &#8220;Pitch-of-Repose&#8221; attitude angle.<br />
I am going to try a 6.6-inch twist (20 calibers) 338 barrel on my 338 Lapua Magnum test rifle.</p>
<p>EDITOR: The illustration used in the original article is NOT from Applied Ballistics. As noted, this is a diagram from the University of Utah Health Sciences Library Firearm Ballistics Tutorial. It is deliberately very basic and is designed to illustrate in very gross terms, basic terminology such as yaw.</p>
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		<title>By: fred flintstone</title>
		<link>https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2013/07/over-stabilization-of-bullets-why-is-too-much-spin-a-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-53212</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[fred flintstone]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Aug 2017 04:30:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/?p=52303#comment-53212</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[True if laws of physics apply. Either otherwise. 
Steve Hurt and Brian Litz answers make most sense to me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>True if laws of physics apply. Either otherwise.<br />
Steve Hurt and Brian Litz answers make most sense to me.</p>
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		<title>By: guy4064</title>
		<link>https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2013/07/over-stabilization-of-bullets-why-is-too-much-spin-a-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-52043</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[guy4064]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2017 15:49:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/?p=52303#comment-52043</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[All I can say is a 7 twist .223 barrel will shoot 52 grain bullets as well as 80`s. So id say false.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All I can say is a 7 twist .223 barrel will shoot 52 grain bullets as well as 80`s. So id say false.</p>
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		<title>By: Keith Hays</title>
		<link>https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2013/07/over-stabilization-of-bullets-why-is-too-much-spin-a-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-52034</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Keith Hays]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jan 2017 12:11:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/?p=52303#comment-52034</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I vote that we don&#039;t get to vote on whether facts are facts. It is either backed up by scientific evidence or it isn&#039;t.  The problem with this issue is that there are two many variables for simple opinion to matter especially when we are talking about super sonic flight. I am not come down on either side, but I am guessing the topic is very likely not on that lay people&#039;s opinion are going to matter much on.  The one thing I do know myself is that some bullets if spun too fast literally come apart in the air. This may not be strictly speaking on topic, but it is a much more likely to be an issue that can be tested by most shooters assuming you have one the barrels with the higher twist rates.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I vote that we don&#8217;t get to vote on whether facts are facts. It is either backed up by scientific evidence or it isn&#8217;t.  The problem with this issue is that there are two many variables for simple opinion to matter especially when we are talking about super sonic flight. I am not come down on either side, but I am guessing the topic is very likely not on that lay people&#8217;s opinion are going to matter much on.  The one thing I do know myself is that some bullets if spun too fast literally come apart in the air. This may not be strictly speaking on topic, but it is a much more likely to be an issue that can be tested by most shooters assuming you have one the barrels with the higher twist rates.</p>
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		<title>By: Darrell</title>
		<link>https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2013/07/over-stabilization-of-bullets-why-is-too-much-spin-a-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-51917</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Darrell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jan 2017 18:16:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/?p=52303#comment-51917</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ok. Here is my question. I No it&#039;s on a 222 Remington guys. CZ American in 222 Remington very nicely weighted gun for my crew. Please help answer if possible. I am going to start my 22 yr old girls &amp; teenage boys together. Story goes 222 has a ballistics issue already. Let me guess projectile prob &amp; a good fast burning powder &amp; we are looking good. (Start closer. But thinking we can get 250-300 yards) am. On the right plan. Get them comfy &amp; eyes in on targets. Then progress. 
All bout 50-60 kgs.(slightly underpowered. But I will teach them to enter in up under lung &amp; neck. 
. Question- I think 1 easy jump to an AR sound feasible to everyone here ? Any info may help. Daryl. Thank you]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok. Here is my question. I No it&#8217;s on a 222 Remington guys. CZ American in 222 Remington very nicely weighted gun for my crew. Please help answer if possible. I am going to start my 22 yr old girls &amp; teenage boys together. Story goes 222 has a ballistics issue already. Let me guess projectile prob &amp; a good fast burning powder &amp; we are looking good. (Start closer. But thinking we can get 250-300 yards) am. On the right plan. Get them comfy &amp; eyes in on targets. Then progress.<br />
All bout 50-60 kgs.(slightly underpowered. But I will teach them to enter in up under lung &amp; neck.<br />
. Question- I think 1 easy jump to an AR sound feasible to everyone here ? Any info may help. Daryl. Thank you</p>
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