Chalk up a legal victory for the gun industry. The U.S. District Court (Southern District of Ohio) has dismissed, with prejudice, the Primus Group v. Smith & Wesson, et al lawsuit. The decision was delivered October 9, eliminating the plaintiff’s claims against several prominent AR-15 firearms manufacturers, including Smith & Wesson, Remington Arms Company, SIG Sauer, Sturm, Ruger & Company, Colt Manufacturing, and Armalite.
“This decision by the federal judge to dismiss with prejudice this frivolous case is pleasing, if not unexpected,” said Lawrence G. Keane, NSSF Senior Vice President of Government Relations and Public Affairs and General Counsel. “These are lawful and federally-regulated AR-15 modern sporting rifle manufacturers that make semiautomatic rifles for lawful purposes. The judge was absolutely correct to assert that the proper venue to establish public firearms policy is through the legislature and not the courts.”
Primus Group, LLC, is a small entity in Columbus, Ohio with a vague business model. The limited liability company filed suit after the tragic murders in El Paso and Dayton, Ohio. They claimed racketeering, intentional misrepresentation claims, and “a clear and present danger” of all American lives due to “assault weapons”. The modern sporting rifles manufactured and sold by the companies named as defendants are semi-automatic rifles, meaning one round is fired for each trigger pull.
The court found the plaintiffs had no standing to bring the case against the defendants. This decision rightfully asserts that those who purposefully and criminally misuse firearms are the ones who are responsible for those crimes. It further affirms that activist lawsuits to prompt judicial action are not the proper avenue to establish policy.
Honored American Veterans Afield (HAVA) is a volunteer organization that provides hunting and shooting experiences for American military veterans and injured active military personnel. HAVA has sponsored events in Texas, Georgia, South Dakota, Montana, North Carolina, California, Washington, Florida, and other states. HAVA was conceived and organized in 2007 by shooting sports industry executives to help the healing and re-integration of disabled veterans and injured active military back into normal American life through participation in outdoor events.
One of the most recent HAVA events was the 7th Annual HAVA/Rockcastle Family Day at the Park City, KY shooting complex on Saturday, September 14, 2019. Over 300 disabled veterans, family members, and volunteers assembled to share a day of shooting, winning prizes, eating good food, and enjoying fellowship with other military veterans who have bravely protected the American dream.
Every year, HAVA conducts a series of hunting and shooting events for groups of disabled veterans and injured active military. Many of these events include instruction by world-class shooting experts, such as Jerry Miculek. The next major HAVA event will be the 12th Annual National Family Day, to be held in San Antonio, Texas on October 19, 2019. EVENT INFO HERE. Admission is FREE, and all disabled veteran participants will receive a backpack full of gifts.
HAVA organizes hunting adventures throughout the United States
HAVA states: “These veterans have given their full measure of commitment to the preservation of their country’s values, and deserve America’s contribution to their healing process to whatever degree necessary to accomplish physical, mental and cultural rehabilitation.”
HAVA, through its Sustaining Sponsors, contributors, and volunteers, provides services to veterans in recognition of their sacrifice and service to a grateful nation. If you would like to support HAVA’s programs, you can make a tax-deductible donation through www.HonoredVeterans.org.
About HAVA — Honored American Veterans Afield
HAVA is a 501(c)3 organization formed by companies in the shooting and outdoor industry with the purpose of raising awareness and assisting disabled veterans with their healing process through guided hunts, shooting events, and other outdoor sports activities. Sustaining sponsor companies are: Smith & Wesson, National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF), SIG SAUER, Academi, Arnold Defense, Crimson Trace, E3 Training, FMG Publications, GLOCK, Hornady, Leapers/UTG, Leupold & Stevens, Mossberg, National Association of Sporting Goods Wholesalers (NASGW), Operation Hat Trick, Ruger, Savage, Surefire, Taurus, Vista Outdoor/Federal, XS Sights, and Yamaha Outdoors among numerous contributing companies. To learn more about HAVA, go to: www.HonoredVeterans.org.
We love Smith & Wesson rimfire revolvers. We have put thousands of rounds through S&W Model 617 revolvers, with 4″ and 6″ barrels. These stainless .22 LR handguns are accurate, superbly reliable, and they hold their value. In general we’ve found that Smith & Wesson rimfire revolvers may be less fussy with ammo, and more trouble-free than typical semi-auto rimfires. Bottom line, we feel that everyone should have an S&W rimfire wheelgun in their collection.
And now there’s a great additional Rimfire Revolver option from Smith & Wesson — the “revived” Model 648 in .22 WMR. This stainless Model 648 brings a more powerful cartridge to S&W rimfire revolver fans.
Built on S&W’s medium K-frame, the 8-round Model 648 is designed for small game hunting and target shooting. The .22 WMR is definitely a much more potent varmint cartridge than the .22 LR. You have more downrange energy plus a flatter trajectory. While the 648 does not come with an integral scope rail, it is not difficult to mount red dot or optical sights to this wheelgun.
The Model 648 revolver is built on a stainless steel medium K-frame and includes black synthetic finger groove grips, a black patridge front sight, and adjustable rear sight. This impressive revolver features a full underlug six-inch barrel, eight-round capacity, and is available with an MSRP of $749.
Model 648 History and Features
According to Guns.com: “The K-frame .22 WMR-caliber Model 648 first appeared in Big Blue’s lineup in 1989 sporting a full-lug barrel and stainless steel construction. Retired since 2005, the newest generation of the Model still brings a 6-inch barrel to the party, which translates to a very commanding 11.1-inch overall length. Weight is 46.2-ounces in the eight-shot .22 Mag, making the gun attractive for both those looking to fill pots and smoke targets.” Shown below is a vintage Model 648.
Jan Mladek, General Manager of Smith & Wesson General Manager Jan Mladek reports: “The Model 648 is back in production to satisfy the needs of handgun owners who are looking to achieve greater distance while hunting or target shooting. With a full underlug, six-inch barrel and a patridge front sight, the Model 648 has been designed … to boost accuracy at longer distances. While we currently offer .22 Magnum revolvers in both our J-frame and Classics line, we are excited to add this new .22 Magnum revolver to the modern K-frame lineup.”
Here’s a great deal on a nice 9mm S&W pistol, plus Prime Day super-savings on a versatile 6-handgun carry case. Right now you can get the 9mm M&P M2.0 Compact Pistol for just $339.99 with FREE shipping. This same gun sells elsewhere for $450.00 or more. This is a good handgun, ergonomic, reliable, and more accurate than most other 9mm compact pistols. We’ve used the M&P series pistols, and we like them more than the Austrian competition.
Smith & Wesson M&P 2.0 Compact
The M&P M2.0 pistol has a stainless-steel internal chassis and a low bore axis for reduced muzzle rise. Compared to the previous model, the new M&P M2.0 pistol has a lighter, crisper trigger with tactile/audible reset. The pistol includes textured grip and four interchangeable palm-swell inserts for optimal hand-fit. This pistol comes with two magazines, limited lifetime warranty, and lifetime service policy.
MTM 6-Handgun Transport Case — $37.99
To carry your new S&W 9mm M&P compact and other handguns, check out this handy MTM 6-Pistol Carry Case for $37.99. This is a good case for avid pistol shooters who go to the range with multiple handguns. NOTE: This case is NOT intended for long-term storage. After going to the range, and cleaning your pistols, we recommend you put your handguns in Bore-Store bags inside a secure gun safe.
Shown is the Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm model. The M&P 45 is the same except for chambering.
You’ll hear some shooters complain loudly about the (perceived) lack of accuracy of their handguns. Well, sometimes the problem IS the gun, but other times the problem is “driver error”. At the range, we often hear guys blame their gun for poor accuracy, when in fact the real problem is lack of operator skill. This saga, posted recently on Facebook, is a case in point.
Here’s the story. A gentleman attending an armorer’s course at Smith & Wesson was loudly dissing a S&W M&P 45, claiming it could not shoot. Very loudly he tells the instructor, “the M&P 45 one of our officers is carrying is sh*t”. He then trash-talks the gun, saying that both he and his officer couldn’t get the gun to shoot decent groups, either with FMJ or duty ammo.
Well it seems that Gregory Grutter, S&W’s Chief Firearms Instructor, happened to overhear these vociferous complaints, so Grutter asked to test-fire the M&P 45 pistol. Grutter put a couple of his business cards up at 15 yards, then shot one with Winchester Ranger SXT and the other with Winchester White Box ammo. Grutter’s best group was about half an inch, measured with OnTarget. Check it out:
We’re told that, after hearing the litany of complaints, Grutter walked over to the loud-mouthed grumbler and asked: “Hey Sir, can I shoot it?
“Have at it, I don’t want that POS back!” said Mr. Negative.
Kharma time baby… In Grutter’s hands the M&P performed superbly. Here are Grutter’s two 5-shot groups, each shot at 15 yards with the .45 ACP Smith & Wesson pistol. Pretty darn impressive:
After seeing this, the complainer asked: “Why did you shoot your cards — Ain’t got no targets?”
Grutter smiled and replied: “Nah… in case you or your officer want to learn how to shoot [this way] you will have the numbers to call.” Badda Bing!
Early 6-shot Model 617 shown. Current Model 617s have 10-round cylinders.
“But Honey, I really do need a new gun….”
If you are looking for justification for getting a new handgun, show your spouse this article. Today we explain why every serious shooter should have a .22 LR wheelgun. Rimfire revolvers are versatile, reliable, easy-to-operate, and fun to shoot. A good .22 revolver will be considerably more accurate than 90% of the self-loading pistols you could buy. With a good a .22-caliber rimfire revolver you will learn sight alignment and trigger control. Plus you can practice with inexpensive ammunition.
The better .22 LR revolvers also hold their value. In particular, a Smith & Wesson Model 617 (or its predecessor, the Model 17, shown below) is a good investment. You could use your S&W wheelgun all your life and then pass it on to your kids. If you or your heirs ever wear out the barrel or cylinder, Smith & Wesson will replace the parts for free, forever. Think about that…
The Model 63 Kit Gun is a compact 6-shot (older) or 8-shot (newer) revolver. Older Model 63s are in high demand, so this is another Smith wheelgun that holds its value well…
Smith & Wesson Model 617 — Smith’s Model 617 is extremely accurate, with a very crisp trigger (in single-action mode), and good sights. You can learn all the fundamentals with this ultra-reliable handgun, shooting inexpensive .22 LR ammo. The Model 617 is rugged, durable, and can give you a lifetime of shooting fun.
Once you have mastered the basics of shooting with a .22 LR, you can move on to larger caliber handguns suitable for self-defense. Below is a slide-show illustrating a S&W Model 617 ten-shot, with 6″ barrel. S&W also makes a 4″-barrel version of this revolver. (See: Shooting Demo Video with 4″ model 617.)
Smith & Wesson has issued a CONSUMER SAFETY ALERT for the M&P 15-22, a semi-auto .22LR rimfire rifle with ergonomics like the centerfire AR15. If you own an M&P 15-22, you need to inspect the bolt. A manufacturing problem with the bolt could allow the gun to fire when the bolt closes, even without pulling the trigger. This inspection process is described in this video.
Smith & Wesson states: “The bolt from your M&P 15-22 must be inspected to determine whether it exhibits the condition identified in this notice. To determine whether your firearm is affected by this condition, please inspect your firearm by following the inspection instructions provided here. We are asking consumers of all M&P 15-22 firearms manufactured before February 1, 2019 to inspect their bolt for this condition.”
Smith & Wesson Notice:
M&P 15-22 CONSUMER SAFETY ALERT
AND INSPECTION PROCEDURE
PRODUCT AFFECTED: ALL models of M&P15-22 rifles and pistols manufactured before February 1, 2019.
STOP USING YOUR M&P 15-22 UNTIL IT HAS BEEN INSPECTED AND YOUR BOLT REPLACED (IF NECESSARY).
Smith & Wesson has identified two M&P 15-22 firearms from recent production on which the breech face counter bore depth was not within manufacturing specification. In those firearms, the lack of depth may allow the bolt, upon closing, to crush the rim of the case, causing the round to fire, cycling the bolt, and potentially resulting in multiple discharges without depressing the trigger. This issue can occur in the following two scenarios:
1) With a loaded magazine in the firearm and the bolt locked to the rear, depressing the bolt release to allow the bolt to drop freely may ignite the round as the bolt closes without engaging the trigger and with the safety selector in either the safe or the fire position, and may also result in multiple discharges.
2) With a loaded magazine in the firearm, bolt in the closed position and a round in the chamber and the safety selector in the fire position, depressing the trigger will cause the round to fire normally, however as the bolt cycles, the next round may be ignited by the bolt crushing the rim of the case as it closes, causing multiple discharges.
We believe that these are isolated incidents, however, any unintended discharge of a firearm has the potential to cause injury. Therefore, we have developed this inspection procedure to ensure that all products in the field are safe to use. We are asking customers to perform the following procedure and to refrain from using their M&P15-22 until the bolt has been inspected and replaced as necessary.
REMEDY/ACTION TO BE TAKEN: The bolt from your M&P15-22 must be inspected to determine whether it exhibits the condition identified in this notice. To determine whether your firearm is affected by this condition, please inspect your firearm by following the inspection instructions provided here.
Safety Alert Tip from EdLongrange. We welcome reader submissions.
At the request of our readers, we provide select “Deals of the Week”. Every Monday morning we offer our Best Bargain selections. Here are some of the best deals on firearms, hardware, reloading components, optics, and shooting accessories. Be aware that sale prices are subject to change, and once clearance inventory is sold, it’s gone for good. You snooze you lose.
Here are Ruger Precision Rimfire 50-yard Groups Shot with CCI Std. Velocity Ammo.
Right now you can get a .22 LR Ruger Precision Rifle for just $349.99 from Palmetto State Armory, shipping included. That’s a great deal — This same rifle sells elsewhere for $450.00 or more. This is a very affordable, chassis-style cross-training rig for PRS Shooters. Ruger Precision Rifle owners also favor the .22 LR rimfire “baby brother” because it shares similar ergonomics with the bigger, centerfire RPRs.
2. Brownells — 3500 Rds CCI .22 LR Ammo, $116.94
Here’s a crazy great deal — 3500 rounds of .22 LR rimfire ammo for just $116.64 after Rebate. That’s just 3.3 cents per round! Here’s how it works. Go to Brownells.com and order seven (7) 500-ct Bricks of CCI Blazer .22 LR Ammo for $153.93 ($21.99 per brick on sale). Type in Code “NCS” in the Discount Code slot. This NCS Code knocks $15 dollars off the price AND provides FREE Shipping. Cost is now $138.93. Finally, apply for the CCI Factory Rebate. This rebates you $21.99, what you paid (after discount) for one of the CCI 500-ct Bricks. With the Rebate, your Net Cost is just $116.94 delivered. NOTE: You must purchase on or before 3/31/2019.
3. Precision Reloading — 10% Off In-Stock Redding Products
Redding dies enjoy a reputation for precision, quality, and durability. And Redding presses, such as the Big Boss and T-7 Turret, are excellent. Here’s a tempting sale on a host of Redding products — dies, bushings, presses, powder measures, case gauges, case prep tools and more. Right now, at Precision Reloading, all Redding items in stock are 10% Off. But don’t delay. This Redding 10% Off Sale ends today, Monday March 4, 2019 at 11:59 pm CST.
Do you have a rifle sitting in the safe because you haven’t found a scope for it yet? Eurooptic has the Vortex Viper PST 4-16x50mm rifle scope with EBR-1 reticle for a jaw-dropping $499.99. This is a fine scope for $900 and an AMAZING one for the amazingly low price of $499.99. This is one of the best optics deals on the web.
5. Grafs.com — 15% OFF ALL Rimfire Ammo
Finally rimfire ammo is available again in ample quantities. That means wider selection and discounted prices — a win-win for rimfire fans. Whether you shoot .22 LR, or .22 WMR, or 17 HMR, you can now save big at Grafs.com. EVERY brand and type of rimfire ammo is on sale now. Head over to Grafs.com to SAVE 15% on ALL rimfire ammo in stock.
NOTE: It is very rare to see a vendor putting its entire rimfire ammo inventory on sale, so this is an exceptional opportunity. You can buy exactly what you want, not just the “loss leaders”. This sale continues through 3/6/2019 at 11:59 PM CT.
6. RCBS 2019 REBATE Program — Get Up to $100 Back
RCBS just announced its first Rebate Program for 2019. Get up to $100 back on select RCBS® products. If you need an electronic Scale/Dispenser, Progressive Press, a Case Prep Center, Ultrasonic Machine, or Power Case trimmer you’re in luck. Here are the Rebates available for purchases made between 2/1/2019 and 3/17/2019. NOTE: The DEADLINE for mail-in or online submissions is 4/16/2019.
$40 REBATES: Ultrasonic Case Cleaner 2 (87056), Universal Case Prep Ctr (90370), Trim Pro-2 Power Kit ( 90367), or Chargemaster Combo (98923)
$20 REBATES: Ultrasonic Case Cleaner (87055), or Chargemaster Lite (98940)
7. GunProDeals.com — S&W M&P 9mm M2.0, $392.00
Here’s a good deal on a very reliable, accurate full-size 9x19mm pistol — the Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm in handsome Flat Dark Earth finish. We like the distinctive color with contrasting matte black ambidextrous controls. This 9mm pistol is now on sale for $392.00. When we featured this same pistol in September, it proved very popular and sold out at the vendor. If you like it, you might want to act soon.
If you need to ship a rifle to a gunsmith via UPS, you might want to pick up one of these Flambeau Rifle/Shotgun cases for just $10.49. This case is also fine for holding a typical shotgun or hunting rifle for a trip to the range. At 50.5″ overall it will hold most rifles up to about 48″ overall length. You can get free two-day shipping with an order of $35.00 or more. So, combine this with other items (or buy four for $41.96) to get free shipping. IMPORTANT: We would NOT use this to ship rifles with large, expensive scopes mounted. Buy a better case with thicker internal padding for that, or remove the scope. Outside dimensions: 50.5″ L x 3.7″ W x 10.9″ H.
9. Amazon — Jialitte Scope Bubble Level, $10.99
All serious rifle shooters need a scope level. This nicely designed Jialitte Scope Bubble Level features a 30mm milled inside diameter, plus an inner insert ring so it will also fit 1″-diameter main tubes — that dual-diameter versatility is a nice feature. We also like the way the unit is nicely radiused, and has a low profile in the middle. Price is just $10.99 with free shipping. User reviews have been very positive. You could easily pay $35.00 or more for a 30mm scope level. Purchasers have praised this product — nearly all verified buyers rated this five stars.
10. Amazon — 12″ x 12″ Splatter Grid Targets, 10 for $9.99
This 12″x12″ Splatterburst Target combines splatter shot marking with a grid background, with five aiming points. The bright neon shot circles make it easy to see your shots. And the handy grid lets you quickly estimate your group size. Get a 10-pack for $9.99, or a 25-pack for $17.99 (better deal). This particular target has earned rave reviews — 87% of verified buyers gave this a FIVE-Star rating. One example: “Excellent quality and durability. The adhesive is really strong. High contrast makes down range targeting easy and the splatter contrast is [great].”
There is so much to see at SHOT Show, with nearly 2000 exhibitors showcasing tens of thousands of products. SHOT Show is the largest trade show of its kind in the world, attracting 60,000+ attendees from more than 100 countries.
Thankfully there are many teams of reporters who covered SHOT Show this year, and they’ve now posted a wide selection of video reports. In today’s SHOT Show video showcase, we post our “pick of the litter” — ten of our favorite video reports from SHOT Show 2019, plus one great video “blast from the past”.
SHOT Show 2019 kicked off Tuesday, with tens of thousands of exhibitors, media members, and invitees streaming into the Sands EXPO Center in Las Vegas. This firearms industry trade show just gets bigger every year. We visited many of our favorite vendors including Capstone Precision Group (Berger, Lapua, SK, Vihtavuori), McMillan Fiberglass Stocks, Zeiss Optics, Redding Reloading, SIG Sauer, Smith & Wesson, Anschutz, and Target Vision/Longshot.
Here are some quick highlights from Day One of SHOT Show, a little bit of everything: Rifles, pistols, ammo, reloading gear, and some notable shooters.
Capstone Precision Group: Berger, Lapua, SK and Vihtavuori
Capstone Precision Group showcased new products from its four companies: Berger Bullets, Lapua, SK, and Vihtavuori. Lapua showcases cartridge brass and loaded ammo, including new 6.5 Creedmoor ammo with the ultra-consistent Scenar-L bullets. Capstone also told us to expect large quantities of brass to be arriving in the USA soon, including the high-demand 6mmBR brass.
Berger will release new loaded ammo in Lapua brass. Options will include 6mm Creedmoor, which should be popular with the PRS crowd. In addition, Berger will offer an impressive new line of solid projectiles. These ultra-high-BC ELF Match Solids have optimal shapes to stay supersonic at longer ranges. They are an impressive option for the Extreme Long Range game.
McMillan — 6012-Yard Shot with ELR Rifle
At the McMillan booth, members of the Global Precision Group (GPG) Team showcased an impressive .416 Barrett ELR rifle. Team leader Paul Phillips explained how the team managed (on the 22nd shot) to hit a 48″x32″ target at the incredible distance of 6012 yards. Our friend Derek Rodgers, reigning F-TR World Champion, told us that this shows how the ELR sport has evolved. The rifle features a McMillan ELR Beast stock with a Bartlein Barrel on a massive BAT 50 action.The .416 Barrett rounds were loaded with 550 grain Cutting Edge bullets.
A Tacom Charlie/Delta TARAC prism system was fitted in front of the Nightforce scope, allowing the team to put over 625 MOA of elevation on the shot while still being able to see the target. The ballistics numbers for this 6012-yard shot are pretty mind-boggling: 625 MOA of elevation was required, and the bullet was in the air for 17.1 seconds!
New Products from LongShot Target Cameras (aka TargetVision)
Our first stop at the show was at the LongShot Target Cameras booth. Here we met with company founder, Clay Rhoden, the bright young man who has created the best-performing wireless target cameras on the market. Most folks know Rhoden’s company as TargetVision, but Clay said they are re-branding as LONGSHOT Target Cameras, to help emphasize the extreme range capabilities of his latest systems (the top tier Longshot cameras can operate out to one mile and beyond). Clay showed us two new products, the latest target camera (with easy-to remove battery pack), and a special camera that will transmit video from a spotting scope to your mobile devices. See the latest products at www.longshotcameras.com.
Light-Weight Camo Hunting Rifles from Weatherby
Hunters can spend hundreds of dollars on the latest camouflaged clothing in order to blend in to their environment, so why do gun makers continue to produce shiny hunting rifles? Well, this is one thing Weatherby has gotten right with the latest Weatherby Mark V ultra lightweight rifles. The rifle has the option of a rugged, matte Cerakote finish on action, bolt, and barrel, effectively eliminating glare. And did I mention it’s light weight? The full rifle weights a mere 5.75 pounds for non-magnum calibers. Weatherby guarantees sub-MOA accuracy with factory ammunition out of the box. Add a decent lightweight scope and this rifle is ready for a long backcountry hunt.
Hot New Sub-Compacts from SIG Sauer, Kimber, Walther
For shooters who carry concealed or simply prefer a more compact pistol, three new handguns really stood out at shot show 2019: the SIG Sauer P365, Walther CCP M2, and the Kimber EVO. All three guns had a similar weight and feel at roughly 1” width, 6” length, and 1 lb when empty. The P365 has an advantage with a 10 + 1 round capacity, compared to the 7/8 of the EVO and CCP M2, but the CCP M2 is more competitively priced with an MSRP starting at $469. Retail for the P365 starts at $599 and the Kimber a surprising $925. Expect to see these guns in stores between spring and summer of 2019.
Smith & Wesson — Handguns Galore and New T/C Performance Center LRR
Smith & Wesson is not just a handgun company. It markets rifles under its own brand name as well as via its Thompson Center Arms (T/C) division. At SHOT Show 2019 we saw the T/C Performance Center LRR (Long Range Rifle). With a $1211.00 MSRP, this offers great “bang for the buck” for shooters competing in PRS production division. These rigs feature a modular aluminum chassis, 24″ barrel, and adjustable cheekpiece. Available chamberings include .243 Win, 6.5 Creedmoor, and .308 Win. And of course S&W continues to make great wheelguns, include some very BIG magnum revolvers:
At the Anschutz Booth with Company President, Jochen Anschutz
The German company Anschutz remains a world leader in rimfire rifles. The company’s match rifles have captured countless Gold Medals in Olympic target shooting and biathlong competition. Here company President Jochen Anschutz (left) shows the latest Biathlon rifle, featuring the impressive Fornter straight-pull action. With Jochen is Steven Bolter, North America Custom Shop Director. We were pleased to hear that Anschutz will be offering a new line of 17 HM2 (Mach2) rifles soon. That is an effective varmint round that’s considerable less expensive than 17 HMR.