New 30 ARX — 6.5 Grendel Necked to .30 Caliber Beats 300 BLK
Robert Whitley of AR-X Enterprises has a new .30-caliber cartridge for AR-platform rifles. The new 30 ARX is based on the 6.5 Grendel parent case necked-up to .30 caliber. The 30 ARX mag-feeds flawlessly in an AR15, while offering excellent accuracy, good velocity, and serious knock-down power. Compared to a 300 AAC Blackout (300 BLK), the new 30 ARX holds much more powder so it can push bullets faster and harder. Whitley’s 30 ARX boasts 57% more case capacity than a 300 Blackout. As a result, the 30 ARX outperforms the 300 BLK by a large margin. In a 20″-barreled AR, the 30 ARX can drive a 125gr bullet at 2500+ fps, or launch a heavier 150gr bullet at 2400+ fps:
30 ARX Loads
H4198, CCI BR4 Primers,
Necked-up Lapua 6.5 Grendel Brass:
2419 FPS: 28.0 gr. H4198, Nosler 125gr Ballistic Tip Hunting Bullet (2.260″ OAL)
2517 FPS: 29.0 gr. H4198, Nosler 125gr Ballistic Tip Hunting Bullet (2.260″ OAL)
2363 FPS: 28.0 gr. H4198, Sierra 150gr BT Hunting Bullet (2.240″ OAL)
2441 FPS: 29.0 gr. H4198, Sierra 150gr BT Hunting Bullet (2.240″ OAL)
Robert Whitley explains the advantanges of the 30 ARX for AR-platform rifles: “The 30 ARX is a cartridge designed from the get-go for use in an AR-15. The case length and chamber design of the 30 ARX are optimal. The case allows the use of many of the favorite .30-cal bullets, magazine fed out of an AR-15 and backed by some real power. Brass is easy to make with a simple necking-up process. Neck it up, load it and go shoot. Good 6.5 Grendel brass is readily available, and we have 30 ARX dies available.”
Watch One-Step Process for Forming 30 ARX Case from 6.5 Grendel Brass
With the ability of Lapua 6.5 Grendel brass to handle stout loads, the 30 ARX cartridge delivers 30-30 Winchester-class performance, from the modern, semi-auto AR-15 platform. The 30 ARX cartridge has sufficient case capacity to push popular .30-cal bullets fast and accurately even at moderate chamber pressures. The case has approximately 38 grains water capacity. With its 57% greater capacity than a 300 Blackout, the 30 ARX is a more versatile, more powerful hunting cartridge (at least when loaded to supersonic speeds). With 150gr bullets running in the 2500 fps range, the 30 ARX offers impressive knockdown power in a cartridge that fits an AR-15 magazine.
- 30 ARX Cartridge OAL mag-feeds perfectly with a variety of .30-cal bullets.
- Longer, heavier long-range bullets (with longer COAL) can be single-loaded.
- Lapua 6.5 Grendel brass is excellent, strong brass, that is readily available.
- AR-X Enterprises now offers die sets for the 30 ARX.
- The neck up process is very easy. Simply lube the inside of the necks of 6.5 Grendel brass, run the brass through your re-size die (with .30 Cal expander in place).
- Works well with a lot of commonly available powders such as: Hodgdon 4198, Vihtavouri N130, Accurate LT-32, Accurate AA1680.
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- 300 AAC Blackout Load Data from Sierra Bullets
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Tags: .300 Blackout, 300 BLK, 6.5 Grendel, AR 30 Caliber, AR-X Enterprises, Nosler, Robert Whitley
SO they take the case from 30, then to 6.5, then back to 30,,,
Kudos to Robert for trying this out (I have been using his version of the 6.5 x 47 Lapua with great success) but on this occasion I have to say No, No, No, and let me say again for those not following .. no.
The whole point of having the 300 BLK and variants is to be able to shoot at both subsonic and supersonic velocities with ease. The only mention of subsonic I get is in my comment.
After years of persevering with the 30BR as a Whisper, the three life lessons I got were:
a. Trailboss loves 240 grain SMKs;
b. The bigger case suits 338 or even 375 calibre projectiles better; and
c. I should have given up years ago and gone to the 300 BLK or variant.
On the supersonic side of the house, the 125 Nosler BTs and anything 180 grain tack hole.
Perhaps doing this in 338 would fill a niche?
Some things I definitely don’t understand in the comments above:
1. AGN JETT – – 6.5 Grendel brass comes as 6.5 brass, so I do not understand your comment about going from 30 to 6.5 to 30 again.
2. Rikky Lee – – FWIW, the 30 ARX can go both ways too (i.e. subsonic and supersonic). In fact, because of the significant extra case capacity of the 30 ARX, you can use much slower burning powders to run the subsonic loads (i.e. that keeps your port pressure up) so you don’t have the port pressure and cycling issues like the 300 BLK has trying to go both subsonic and supersonic. As a cartridge to go both ways the 30 ARX has advantages there too.
Robert
Thanks Robert. Did you consider/would you consider trying it in 338?
What is your sub load? 12.2 grain of Trailboss in the 30BR gives me 1050fps with 240 SMKs.
My comment was a general one harkening back to the 7.62×39 / 22 Russian / 22PPC / 6PPC / 6.5 BPC – Grendel / 30 ARX. Don’t get me wrong, as a shooter of the Grendel I like the idea. I like the 6.5 better,,, but that isn’t the niche your going for.
AGN JETT
O.K. – – I follow you now. 7.62×39 is o.k., and I reloaded for that for a while and tried that in an AR-15 a couple times but there were continuing issues and it isn’t like the 30 ARX. First off the 7.62×39 brass is large primer brass and not made for the pressure the Grendel brass is, plus the case taper of the 7.62×39 just isn’t ideal for the AR-15 mag well, no matter what magazine you use. Cool round for an AK but just not ideal for an AR-15 or for someone looking to “boot up the horsepower” like we did with the 30 ARX.
Robert
the whole point of the 300 aac is that all you have to do is swap a barrel, thats it, no shitty mags, no weak bolt faces, no BS.
I’m not well informed on the 30s, how does this compare to the 30 br and the 30 ar Remington? And as for the blackout, I gave up on it from the get go because of the cycling problems. Keep up the good work, Robert, I’m looking to chamber your 260 improved soon.
So, basically the same performance as the Barnes .308 x 1.5″, but with simpler case production.
30 Gremlin, 30 Major,7.62 Covert,308 Arrow and now ARX? This cartridge has more names than the president.
Hornady actually makes brass and loaded ammo already in 30 cal for Tactical Inc out of Bonners Ferry ID .
AKA 30 Action Shooting used by AMU 3gun shooters several years back. Brass was made by Hornady as well.
What barrel length are these velocities measured from?
“Knock-down power” doesn’t exist.
Like one commenter said, from 7.62×39 down all the way to 22 and 6.5 and now back to .30 caliber.
What is the point?
Additionally, it will be plagued with the same problems as the 7.62×39, 6.5 Grendel, etc. in the AR platform:
proprietary magazines, non-standard bolts, and no resources for bulk ammunition. The 5.56mm is still king of the hill, followed by the .300 BLK.
Grendel mags aren’t proprietary they are made my multiple manufactures are are easy to find in stock at midwayusa.
LOL. Congrats… you’ve just turned your varmint rifle into a 30-30… a cartridge much esteemed for it’s prodigious “knock down power.”
I suggest backing it up with a .380 Glock.
“Good to go!”
Hey Robert, I can help with some testing. Just send an upper and i’ll get right to it.
Half ass comments about it being the same as 7.62×39. If you say that you really have no clue about the different cases.
It seems the AccurateShooter audience is going to AverageJoeTallStories. We should all shoot 223 and 45acp, all else is wasted time, we only shoot deer when we’re drunk and home dee-fence anyway, right.
Dont make the mistake of thinking that the cartridge ISNT miles beyond the 300-221 series !
It runs like grain through a goose from a Grendel mag… so no issue there.
We wrung this out in 2K11 :http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5763&highlight=covert
I was not going to keep this discussion going until I read Dasher’s comments.
Robert continues to do a lot of great work with his case development and work on the AR platform. Unfortunately, for this article a bit more work could have perhaps been done on the “why” aspects of the case.
There is too much emphasis in US gun writing on pushing bullets faster; when perhaps we should be talking about balancing accuracy with velocity. When you have a case that is seeking to improve on the BLK and variants then there is a need too to demonstrate the subsonic potential.
I think the PPC case offers a lot of potential for having a foot in both camps and I see Robert is trying to work it with the gas balancing of the AR = where my personal preference would be to keep it in a bolt action.
I see marketing the new case as the biggest challenge as the pool is pretty full. Hence my comments on 338 – something different and niche that hasn’t really been done to the AR.
here is some more info on similar AMU rounds
http://blogs.militarytimes.com/gearscout/2011/10/23/usamus-horner-takes-the-gold-with-300blk/
so it iz juste le munition de ak47 en improved?
Oui c’est à ce sujet
you are incredibule you yankees! you think you fool us with the re invention of the m-43 cartoosh? deguising it with a changement of calibrers from 6,5 too 308?? It is juste to ridicull and we frenchs are not abused with this powdre in our eyes:this cartoosh shall never be legall in france!
Just like “tylerw02″ says what about solving all the problems the Grendel has already in the AR platform before this kinda silliness. Can you say broken bolts!
I had a chambering reamer made up 2-3 years ago. 6mm PPC with a 30 cal neck. Re chambered a Swedish Mauser I had rebarreled to 7.63×39. Works a lot better. The almost straight sided case stacks and feeds well in the Mauser magazine.
Now I take the .311 bullets I had and swage them to 308.
I have several ‘Grendels’ in various guises, have not had any issues…just like the 308…
For three years now I’ve had a Sako Vixen bolt action with basicly this chambering. I had a .308 barrel chambered with a grendel reamer + seperate neck and throat.
It does 2590 fps with 150 ballistic tips. I’ve shot a few caribous with it, great killing power.
Also does subsonic rounds since I have a 1:8 twist barrel. Incredibly efficient catridge with VV N530 powder…
No way a 7.62×39 could do even near the same. The straight walls of the grendel sticks so much better to the chamber, and it handles much higher pressure with no issues.
It’s right behind the 30BR in performance.
This wildcat goes under many names but I believe the most correct is .30 Walker
a little late to this thread but i like the idea of this, ive always wanted a blown out 7.62×39 (.308 not that .310-.312 bs) so it would go through an AR mag better.
I’ve explored designing a 7.62x39mm Improved cartridge, but the 30ARX beat me to it. Along with AR-15 feed/magazine issues, the biggest problem with the old Soviet cartridge is that its body taper produces excessive head thrust, which prevents loading to its full potential.
As the 5.56×45 has lost velocity with the M4 short barrel/M855 cartridge combination, terminal shock of the Small Caliber-High Velocity (SCHV) concept has been compromised. The 6.5 Grendel also suffers this shortcoming except with its lightest bullets. Also of note is the 6.5×50 Japanese, which offers ballistics similar to the Grendel, was abandoned by the Japanese in 1938 for the larger 7.7×58 cartridge.
Call me old school, but when putting meat on the table or going into a fight with a sub-3,000 fps FMJ, I’d prefer punching a bigger hole with a heavier bullet. At equal pressure, the 30ARX cartridge will prove capable of achieving higher velocities for the same weight bullet as the 6.5 Grendel. If the 30ARX gains traction, it will help drive the handy AR-15 platform to its full potential.
Can 7.62×39 brass cased cartridges be fire-formed in a 30 ARX chamber? Perhaps Jamez can answer this…
the 308 arrow has been out for years, which this is an exact copy
I have a 28″6.5 Sportswear (Grendel) SS 1″ bull barrel, on my AR 15. What do I need to do to it to shoot the round?
7.62 x 39, Ackley improved”?
As the old song goes:
“The World is a Circle”.
Could you recut a 7.62×39 AR chamber into a 30ARX? Thrifty crowd wants to know
The Grendel case would be a great platform for .338 or .366(9.3). With there higher BC and SD. But to take full advantage the would do better shortened a bit to accommodate the longer bullets without intruding into the case. The 9.3 would be a lower velocity round but would be very suitable for close to medium range and very good at subsonic with it’s 232 to 320 gr long bullets. The .338 could be speedy with 160 to subsonic neatly 300 gr. Would be devastating in and SBR for either.
.338 and .366 would bring the ar to it’s full potential. Speedy to subsonic. Would be devastating in a SBR and carbine.
Interesting …with all the less than stellar commentary regarding the 7.62×39 cartridge , and it’s “short-comings”, it’s very apparent to me that very few of you ballistic experts have ever been hit by one of those poorly performing Soviet rounds . Oh ; and BTW , they will drop a deer at 250 yards . The meat is in my freezer .
Wildcat rounds and odd-ball loads don’t compensate for a poorly designed firearm . Casey Stoners original design worked very well , but some morons in the District of Corruption had to fix it.
I think about 90% of the commenters here misunderstand what the .30ARX (.30-6.5 Grendel) is & what it’s for.
1) It can make major power factor for USPSA 3-Gun matches, while allowing the use of the lighter, handier AR15 platform instead of the big, bulky AR10.
2) It turns the AR into a legitimate hunting rifle, with ballistics exceeding the old .30-30 round.
At these tasks, it excels. It does not have the exterior ballistics of the 6.5 Grendel for mid-to-long range target shooting, however. If you understand its purpose and are willing to spend the time & money it takes to operate it, it is most rewarding. I really wish some one would legitimize this round with SAAMI & start chambering rifles for it & making factory ammo. The .30RemAR was a good idea, but was too proprietary and failed. I think the .30ARX would fair better.
It is NOT a 7.62×39 Improved! There are differences in the case head between the 7.62 & the .30ARX’s parent case.
There IS increased bolt thrust, which stresses the small AR15 bolt, but you’re not going to be stuck in the middle of Afghanistan without supply with your .30ARX! Buy a new bolt! Keep one as a spare! Change them regularly! They’re like $65!
“There’s no cheap surplus ammo!” No shit, Sherlock – it’s a wildcat cartridge! Think Mom & Pop Hardware in BFE, AR is going to carry your tacticool .300BLK? Yeah, not so much. If one is savvy enough to have a .30ARX, they probably have a 5.56 as well to blast away with cheap, available ammo.
The .300BLK was designed, originally, by J.D. Jones as a subsonic round, the .300 Whisper. Launching 200+ grain bullets below the speed of sound out of suppressed rifles is its specialty. Try to go supersonic & it’s not much more than the .30 Carbine. Yes, I know all about the “it only requires a barrel change” nonsense. Who takes off their barrel nut every time you want to change calibers? Who only has 1 magazine? It’s also not good to swap bolts between barrels: it can create uneven wear patterns that may lead to premature failure. 5.56 bolts are $40. Buy one for use with your pre-assembled .300BLK upper…
Anytime you stray outside of original design parameters, you invite issues. Using a larger base diameter round in an AR15 platform can cause malfunctions. Modifying the feed ramps on the barrel & upper receiver cures this right up. You’re already going to have to ream the chamber (and/or install a custom barrel), take a Dremel and deepen & widen the feed ramps. Then buy a couple of 6.5 magazines & you’re GTG. Large rounds like the .458SOCOM usually require major modifications to the feed ramp & magazine to work properly.
Anyway, if you don’t understand it or don’t like it, don’t buy it! Just get what ever overpriced tacticool garbage the fake “operators” on YouTube recommend & dress all up in your multi-cam so you can look like a complete douche-bag on the range.
I can see how this will be valuable for AR15 owners. The velocities are near identical to my 7.62×39 bolt gun rounds though, I even use the equivalent Australian powder, AR2207.