Remington Introduces new 30 Remington AR Cartridge
Remington Arms just introduced a new cartridge, the 30 Remington AR (aka “30 RAR”), to be used in AR-platform rifles to be built by its DPMS subsidiary. (Remington, DPMS, and Bushmaster are all owned by Cerberus Capital Management, a private holding company.) The cartridge carries the “short, fat” design to the extreme. It is based on a shortened version of the .450 Bushmaster, which itself was a cut-down version of the .284 Winchester. Like the .284 Win, the 30 Remington AR has a rebated rim, so it will fit a .308 Win-sized boltface (0.473″). While it resembles a 30BR, the new case is much fatter, offering an impressive 44 grains of powder capacity. The portly diameter of the 30 RAR case dictates that the magazine will be a single-stack, and will hold only four (4) rounds.
Cram a Big Cartridge in an AR15 Mag and Make Sure It’s a Thirty
What was Remington thinking? Well, the stated project goal was to transform the standard AR15 into a “legitimate big game hunting platform.” Presumably, a 30-caliber cartridge was chosen for marketing purposes as that is the most common deer hunting caliber. The “science” of the design was basically to stuff the biggest cartridge possible in a standard AR15-sized magazine. According to Outdoor Life columnist John Snow: “DPMS President Randy Luth and Remington’s John Fink (brand manager for the rifle division) … both said that the goal was to look at the AR lower and see how much cartridge they could fit in there.”
30 Remington AR (30 RAR) Specifications
Case Capacity | Rim Diam. |
Parent Cases | Shoulder | Factory Load | Mag Type |
44.0gr H20 | 0.473″ .308 bolt face |
.450 Bushmaster .284 Winchester |
25° | 125gr SP or 125 B-Tip 2800 fps 0.267 BC |
4-Round Single Stack |
Factory 30 Remington AR Rifles and Uppers
Initially, the 30 Remington AR round will be chambered in complete, DPMS-built Remington R15 rifles, which start at $1,199.00 MSRP. For production rifles, the expected rate of twist is 1:10″, but that has not been finalized. What about separate uppers? Given the hefty price of the complete rifle, existing AR owners may prefer to purchase a 30-caliber upper by itself. While no release date was given, Remington stated that 30 RAR uppers will definitely be offered for sale in the future.
Impressive Velocities but Much Less Energy than a .308 Win Shooting 160s
With 44 grains of capacity, the 30 RAR can generate some impressive velocities with bullets in the 120-125gr weight range. Remington claims its 125gr factory ammo will deliver 2800 fps muzzle velocities running at about 55,000 psi pressure levels. Three factory loads will be offered: Rem-branded 125gr Core-Lokt PSP and 125gr AccuTip BT, and a UMC-branded 123gr FMJ. At $18.99 per 20-round box, the UMC ammo is intended for inexpensive practice purposes. The $35.99/box AccuTip and $26.49/box Core-Lokt PSP are much costlier. The relatively light-weight bullets used in the Remington ammo have poor Ballistic Coefficients compared to the longer, heavier bullets typically used in a .308 Win or 7mm-08. The 125gr Core-Lokt has a 0.267 BC, while the 125gr AccuTip is somewhat better at 0.335. Nonetheless, Remington’s ballistics tables show that the AccuTip should match the trajectory of a 165gr AccuTip (fired from a .308 Win), fairly well out to 400 yards. However, there is a BIG difference in energy as you can see from the table below. At 300 yards, the 125gr AccuTip delivers 1153 ft/lbs of energy compared to 1661 ft/lbs for a 165gr AccuTip launched at 2700 fps from a .308 Win. (Note: these numbers were calculated with 24″ barrels. Remington’s 30 RAR-chambered R15 rifle has a 22″ barrel, so its performance should be somewhat less impressive.)
COMMENTARY by EDITOR
Our first reaction to the news of Remington’s new cartridge was: “Why?” The obvious (and cynical) answer is that Remington wanted to sell AR-style rifles to deer hunters who need an excuse to purchase a military-style semi-automatic. There may be a market for that… who knows. But there is already a proven, compact 30-caliber cartridge that fits a standard-sized AR15 lower — the 7.62×39. The 7.62×39 won’t push a 125-grainer as fast as the bigger 30 RAR, but the 7.62×39 will still kill a whitetail plenty dead. Perhaps Remington’s engineers should simply have applied themselves to producing a proper (i.e. 100% functional) 7.62×39 magazine. This Editor has tried most of the AR15 7.62×39 magazines on the market (from 3-rd to 30-rd capacity). None of those I tested worked particularly well. Some simple redesign work (call the MagPul folks) would solve that.
Better AR Ballistics with 6.5 and 6mm Cartridges
If the goal was to produce an AR15 with better ballistics and downrange energy than the .223 Rem cartridge delivers, we’re not sure a 30-caliber was the way to go. The 6.5 Grendel performs exceptionally well in AR rifles, delivering great accuracy with 123gr Lapua Scenar or Sierra bullets. Likewise, the AR15 can be a superb High Power and Cross-the-Course platform shooting the 6mmAR cartridge developed by Robert Whitley. The 6mmAR is the 6.5 Grendel necked down to 6mm. Shooting 105 Berger VLDs it comes very, very close to the ballistics of the larger 6mmBR cartridge, and it gives up nothing in accuracy. By contrast, with its low-BC bullets, the 30 Remington AR is not going to be competitive at longer ranges with either the 6.5 Grendel or the 6mmAR. And with factory mags limited to four (4) rounds, you couldn’t use this gun effectively in High Power matches, even if it proves highly accurate on the short course.
Important Innovation or Another Orphan Cartridge?
Only time will tell whether the 30 Remington AR cartridge will catch on with sport shooters and hunters. We’re not sure the round has an important purpose that cannot be filled by existing, proven cartridges. The complete 30 RAR rifles are expensive ($1200+) compared to a typical bolt-action deer rifle, so we wonder how many deer hunters will actually jump on Remington’s bandwagon. Speaking frankly, so long as the cartridge is available only with Remington-made brass, we predict little interest among competitive shooters. Now if Lapua were to produce a 65,000-psi rated version of this cartridge, THAT might interest hunter benchrest shooters and BR for score shooters. A Lapua 30 RAR would be like a 30BR on steroids. But alas, don’t expect Lapua, or Norma, or even Winchester, to produce 30 RAR brass any time soon.
So, does the 30 Remington AR (aka “30 RAR”) have a future? It will certainly stimulate sales of AR-platform rifles to some extent. That’s important because AR sales have been lagging recently. Perhaps that is enough justification for a new round. All things considered however, we think Remington would have been better off building its “AR for big game” around the 6.5 Grendel case, perhaps in a 7mm version. Still, we have to credit Remington’s designers. Using a modern “short, fat” design, with a rebated rim, they’ve achieved impressive velocities in a very compact cartridge. The chopped-down .284 may prove to be a very accurate design.
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Remington’s RAR case loaded with Sierra’s new 135 grain .30 Match Kings has real possibilities for tournament use. People will be loading various 150 grain hunting bullets and probably get 2400+ fps. That combination will make an excellent deer cartridge. The same loads in bolt guns would be great for junior shooters and the recoil shy. Lots of options are interesting and only time will sort them all out. I’m for it.
Kevin Britvec
A solution in search of a problem. Typical of Remington’s marketing for the last 10 years. Lucky for them, there are plenty of green kool-aid drinkers around.
I predict bolt failures at the pressures and velocities advertised. Call me if you have any questions.
Mike Ezell-co-designer of the 30 Major…an accurate and reliable 30 caliber AR-15 cartridge that will feed with 5 or 20+ round magazines!
270-542-6022
Looks like Big Green was watching…
What little I have studied about AR’s, there were concerns about expanding the bolt face to house the PPC/short Russian case. Now Rem is boosting it to 308 bolt head sizes??????
Isn’t there a similar case in the 458 SOCOM but with the PPC head size???
About the only thing I can see good about this design is that it will make a superb 6.5 LR sniper rd (very interesting F class rd too if brass can be made stronger). Ballistics will be very similar to the 260R which will exceed the Grendel easily especially with 130gr Bergers/120gr Amax or 139gr Lapuas/140gr amax.
This would fit right into my concept for a light weight DMR set up.
M4/223 for getting into the ‘hide’. Two pins and a 6.5 RAR slapped on (scoped sighted in ready to go easily fitting into a 26″ case or stuffed in a backpack). 1200yds of viable reach. When work is done, M4 upper back on and back to camp. Add 6lbs (upper, scope and ammo) to the carry load of an M4 plus this solder doesn’t loose his/her firepower should the need arise (vs a firefight with a blind mag 5rd bolt gun weighing 17lbs. Even the Russians weren’t as cruel)
Same thing could be done with the SOCOM case (maybe it already has ).
As a hunting rd, why would anyone spend this type of money when they can just as easily get a full size 308 based AR10 and live happily ever after?
Jerry
I agree on the bolt issues. This might be good for the R-10, but then the door gets kicked open to other possibilities such as the 6.5 Creedmore or the 6.5×47 Lapua. In a bolt gun, it could serve junior shooters and possilby 300m shooters looking for score and not group.
I’m more interested in a 6.5mm or 7mm version with a 40° shoulder loaded to mag length an pushing a 142gr Sierra MatchKing or 162gr AMAX.
Forgot to ask, is this a large or small primer case? I don;t think I saw it in the article.
I don’t think it will have “bolt” issues WSSM have an even larger bolt and generate 62K PSI plus
Highly doubt you will see this used outside of the hunting arena. It is proved that heavy bullets is smaller calibers are dominating, ie. 6mmAR. Beggs, do you think that this could push a 142 or 162 to any reasonable velocity in an AR-15 platform?
Beggs: Loaded to mag length, I would think that a 142 SMK in 6.5mm, that the bullet would have to be seated to about half way into the case body, seriously limiting powder capacity.
Dave,
My applogies, I was refering to a bolt action like a Remington 700 and using a short action with the capability of loading them to 2.820 +/-. That should allow you to seat the bullet out farther and use all of the case capacity of the cartridge. If it uses a small rifle primer you should be able to exceed the 6.5×47 Lapua given the case capacity… if you blow the shoulder.
In an AR, no not the 142gr SMK. Maybe the 120gr AMAX or the 123gr Lapua Scenar, but then you’re in the Grendel’s territory with Lapua brass. Increase the shoulder to 40° and feeding might become chunky.
Jerry has good comments. Many others (including editor in chief, sorry…) seem to lack broad experience on AR-15 platform.
The new 30 RAR, just like 6.5 Grendel, is for making most out of AR-15 platform. If you’re ever carried AR-15 and AR-10, you won’t be making such comments about choosing the bigger platform for e.g. hunting. AR-15 is just very handy and most times a pleasure to carry.
AR-15 is very viable platform for hunting, since it’s cheap and doesn’t require custom work (when compared to bolt action rifles with same *consistent* accuracy potential). And did I mention it’s light and handy? And versatile (different uppers).
In my opinion, 30 RAR is quite welcome since it simplifies the brass issue. It’s very difficult to neck down 450 Bushmaster brass… you can always neck up or down to your desired caliber.
As to the magazine issue, probly you can just swap the single-column follower from factory mag to e.g. 30rd 223 mag and have capacity of at least 8 which HP requires.
I don’t see why you’d want to use 30 RAR in anything but AR-15. Guns with no such limitations have choices which are much easier to work on/with.
Beggs, point taken! I see where you are coming from. Best of luck to Remington in their future endeavors. The shooting industry needs it!
This case could be a great starting point for several .30 cal. accuracy chamberings for Benchrest use. It’s only 1 gr. of water short of the minimum for Hunter Benchrest requirements and the same basic length as the 30BR case. Several people have been working with ‘blown foward’ 30BR’s (shoulders .070-.100 foward) with good success, so this may be another area to explore.
Most new cases start with a .30 cal hole in the front. I can see this case being necked up and down for a family of AR cartridges with Remington headstamps. How about a 6 or 7mm, or a .338? Higher case capacity than existing .223 frame AR cartridges, like the Grendel and SPC without the size, cost and weight of the .308 frame size.
BTW, you only need 5 in the mag to shoot HP. 2 and 8 is for service rifle only in defference to the Garand. Match rifle is 5 and 5.
More EBRs in “hunting” calibers is always a good thing, even if it’s not ballistically momentous. The more hunters/shooters that own and enjoy EBRs, the more voices to fight bills next spring.
Just one question, what for? Why introduce a new cartridge when the 6.8SPC is out there? I’ve read some pretty poor reviews on Big Green’s 6.8 performance with their rifles and ammo. A bunch of AR guys use the 6.8 with great effect on critters. These shooters tend to use Hornady or Silver State ammo and Ko-tonics barrels.
My personal 6.8 upper will shoot SSA or Hornady to the same point of impact. It shoots extremely well to 200+ yards with very light recoil. I am however, using a Ko-tonics barrel(1:11″ 4 groove), Stag upper and YHM handguard. There are companies that have modified the 6.8 chamber to get the proper performance. Let’s get the last AR cartridge by Remington right before putting a new one on the market. I think that this one will flop, but I’ve been wrong before.
Magazine capacity is limited, it has limited performance and ammo will probrably cost a fortune. I’ll pass on this cartridge.
I have seen the 30AR and am impressed with the concept. A more potent platform than the .300 Whisper. Think of all the potential T/C Encore barrels. XP-100 conversions. Model XR-100 rifles and a complete family of Remington AR cartridges. .22 6mm 6.5 .270 7mm in addition to the .30 cal. WOW i can hardly wait. Big R has a winner!
Why not .30 Grendel or .30/6.8 SPC or .30 Benchrest. These three would fit in an AR for sure. Mag capacity won’t be limited with these three. Others I prefer .25-222 Rem, 6mm Grendel, 6.5 MPC,and .35 Rem. The new .30 RAR is too limited, besides a .35 Rem can fit in an AR mag with 125gr JHP. A .35 Rem with 125gr JHP would produce 2200fps and 1345ft-lbs from a 10″ barrel and be great for CQB. And still have 1260fps and 443ft-lbs at 200 yds.
Why not just make a 7.62 X 39mm upper?
Remington had the chance to get it right the first time with the 6.8 SPC. They chose not to use any testing/development/recommendations of that round by its original designers before they sent the specs to SAAMI. All they had to do was use the recommended Murray chamber dimensions along with the recommended twist rate of 1:12 and there would not have been any issues with the 6.8 SPC shooting the faster loads. Ammo manufactures would be able to maximize the potential of that cartridge along with rifle manufactures able to produce the correct barrel/chamber specs to begin with. No, Remington had their chance and they wasted it. It really is a shame. I had always liked Remington, but to me, they like the big US auto makers let corporate greed get in the way of making a better product and are now suffering that hurried decision.
Neat concept, but the 7.62×40 (.308 pill in a 223 Rem case).
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=121&t=382761
Wouldn’t this be great necked down to 6.5mm?
You may not be able to use 140 gr Berger VLDs… but 120 gr SMKs would work great, no?
I like the concept of the cartridge, but basing this on the 450 BM cartridge and then expecting it run well in a .223/556 magazine body is a losing proposition.
The 450 BM, though a nice cartridge, is a loser due to poor feeding in a GI mag body. The cartridge is just too small in diameter for the spacing between the lips of the GI magazine. It wants to slip upward between slightly spreading mag lips rather than ride below them. This cartridge should behave exactly the same way if it is based on a necked down 450.
I can see they designed this for hunters with the mag capacity. With the upcoming democratic stronghold making the AR a hunting rifle may not be a bad idea however Remington will botch this one just like the rest.
Now team up a ammo manufacturer with a wildcatter to build a 6.5 that is as fast a 260 in a AR15 or a .338 that is as fast as the 338 Federal with brass able to handle 65k. The 6.5 & .338 ARSM.
As an avid coyote hunter I have been looking for a long range coyote round that will fit in the AR15 size rifles. It would appear that there is the POTENTIAL for this new 30RAR cartridge to be necked down to 6mm and provide AR15 owners with a cartridge that would shoot at least as flat or flatter than a 22-250 with the 55 grain bullets if they will feed OK. In addition it would appear that 70, 75, and 80 grain bullets should work well for anyone who wanted a heavier bullet for windy days. To have an honest 400 yard plus coyote rifle built on an AR15 platform would be nearly perfect. This is assuming that the new round would funtion properly and at least 10 round magazines were available. I would be one of the first to buy this new rifle if and when they become available. I have several hunting friends who would do the same.
I can’t see why, when Remington already came out with a 6.8mm SPC that is a reasonable AR deer rifle round and needs more demand developed,and has the .308 in their AR-10 platform, that they came up with this one. Seems a real stretch with little utility.
I understand the marketing angle–first .30 in an AR-15 (rather than AR-10) platform–but that assumes that the new round could do something a 6.5mm Grendel or other very capable cartridge already in an AR-15 platform cannot. Given that the Grendel can outperform the .308 at most ranges, and the .308 is superior to the .30 AR, the .30 AR seems DOA to me.
The key is 44 grain capacity. This will end up forming the basis for future variants — 6mm, 6.5, 7mm versions.
The extra capacity approaches .260 Rem/7mm-08 performance, in an AR15 platform.
The extra capacity will allow matching Grendel/SPC performance at lower pressure, or will allow surpassing performance of those two cartridges. The tradeoff is low mag capacity, given a single stack mag.
Anything to increase the popularity of EBRs with the Fudd class is a good thing.
We need to kill the whole “Sporting Purposes” GCA BS and this helps do that.
I grew up a big green fan, but the company has lost its way and lost my business.
How about:
1. Address the quality control issues of the M700
2. Producing a M700 in 6BR and 30BR with an action of the same quality as the M700 drop in replacements and a quality chamber in a quality barrel.
3. Work with Lapua to remarket their ammo in the US market.
You can already get a 243 in an ar platform and the 7.62 is a viable alternative for a bigger hole in a deer.
Sounds like Remington just wants us to spend even more money on ammo that is already skyrocketing.
Too bad they didn’t just straighten the 7.62×39 (less case taper, making it comparable to the .223 case taper) to work in existing magazines better. I have had good results with my 7.62×39 upper, but am always concerned with reliability because of the magazine.
The 30 Rem AR fills the precieved need of a bunch of us, a deer rifle on the AR15 platform. I think of it more as a 30-30 than a .308. Perhaps an “improved” version of the 7.62 X 39 would have been more practical, but until someone starts offering one, the 30 Remington AR comes closest to giving me what I want for the Wisconsin Deer woods. Lets just hope the bolt is strong enough. If anyone can make this work it is Remington and DPMS.
I think this is a concept that has real possibilities in that it will work within the existing AR platform and not the larger, heavier, and more costly 308 based variant. While it may not do best with the 30 cal version, it has real possibilities beyond the current platforms to use much more significant bullet weights than that available through the 6.8 SPC. I will almost certainly build one to play around with. Just anxious to see if they have better luck with the magazine reliability than with the 7.62X39.
All I can say is that Remington or Cerberus is totally missing the boat with the AR platform. Quit D I N K I N G around with new piddly rounds and start making these AR’s in standard calibers like 30.06 and .270win or .338 Win Mag etc. You will clean up the market if you do that. Cobb Manufacturing was about to make an AR in 30.06, prior to Bushmaster buying them out; that weapon seemed to just vaporize into thin air. You all are part of the same family, just have one of these companies produce it and it will sell like hot cakes!
The bolts wont be an issue. They are basically AR-10 bolts, fit to what is bascially and AR-10 barrel extension. The upper reciever is modified to fit these parts, and wont accept AR-15 components. Same type of system that Oly uses to run the WSSMs at 65K in an AR-15.
The problem is, Remington has screwed with the cartridge. Originally, it was based on the .284 Win/.450 Bushmaster. The body diamter of that cartidge gives it feeding problems in standard AR mags, as the poster above explained, but it did have the standard .308 bolt head.
As released, the cartridge has been modified. They have kept the magazine jamming body, and tacked a brand new, non-standard, semi-rebated case head onto it. All this does is leave you beholden to Remington for brass. You wont be able to form your own from decent Lapua or Norma cases as you would have if they left it alone. And it also limits any potential wildcatting to the Remington parent case as well.
Way to kill a decent idea, Remmy!
Looks a lot like AK-47 ammo. You could just go out and buy an SKS and save about a $1000 and have less but comparable with economical ammo as well. Why didn’t they come out with that with a rim on it instead of a rebated one and then Thompson Center could make a barrel for their Encore in that design. Maby the Remington designers should look into employment at the whitehouse to help with the bail-outs.
Would like to see a 6.5 variant of this cartridge, would solve many of the problems as most wildcat calibers are not SAAMI standardized especially those used in an AR15 platform.
Might work good for the 6BR or 6BRX for across the course
Not a bad idea but no market. Police depts are waiting for the AR rifle to be downsized. A downsized AR with a 7.62x33mm round would be the best thing since the HK MP-5. Thats right an AR that fires the M-1 Carbine round. A limited range police close quarters rifle with much less recoil than the 5.56x45mm rifle. Knights rifle co is currently working on a project that uses this concept w/ 6x35mm round. The 7.62 round is a better close quarters round than the 6mm group.
The MP-5 still would be the most used police swat weapon made if it fired a better round that would penetrate body armor. Limited range with very little recoil is needed and there is a huge market for this weapon.
“Looks a lot like AK-47 ammo. You could just go out and buy an SKS and save about a $1000 and have less but comparable with economical ammo as well.”
I wouldn’t call 35 vs 44 grains capacity “comparable”.
rod #23 and jim #35
I have been using .450 bushmaster for over seven years (originally .45 PRO from Lemag firearms)with no problem. You need to not use old aluminum millitary mags. They expand over time and can even cause feeding problems with 556/.223. My Thermolds work great. Quality steel mags also work fine.
Been using a 260 R since it came out. Kills deer at 400 yards almost dead on point of aim with 129 grain sst @ 2950 fps. It really does not drop out of the kill zone. Shot several deer in Texas. My load doesn’t drop like factory specs say it should. Nothing mentioned here can do what my 260 does. The 260 is aready in the AR platform. Do we need more? If I was twenty and had to go to Iraq I’d want a 260 based AR.
Give them a chance, we all get tehm all the time. I like the idea and rifle combo. 4 round mag and 22″ barrel. Its a great deer hunting rifle. Im waiting I get my BATFE clearance to buy a gun, two people have the same exact name as mine and my ID got stolen. SO, I have to MAKE sure the BATFE can do there job, so Im not getting blamed for something else again. Just wait and see, I wanting for the brass to get out there, then we sportmans can really test this gun. Its new, I feel lets give them a chance.
They need to hurry up and do 260 RAR before the gun grabbers get their way.
Agree, not really needed in an AR, but could be a great light recoil round for a small bolt or break open gun. Our young (and petite) folks could graduate from a 30-30 to a excellent deer cartidge. Probably has about the same recoil. Remington will miss the boat if they don’t market this direction as well. Then again, they create great cartridges that nobody wants due to marketing failures. 6.5, 350, 5mm. Ahead of their time!
I think the 30RAR has the potential of being the new Winchester 30-30 of the 21st century. We Americans love the .30 caliber and we love the AR15 platform. I can see a lot of deer hunters in the eastern woods using this combo. I’m not sure more than 3 rounds are useful when you are hunting. On the first shot game runs away. Maybe you can get a fast second shot on a running deer. I would like to see a short light version. Maybe a light 18″ barrel.
Wouldn’t the 30 t/c fit in an AR platform? Seems like similar idea but the 30 t/c has much better ballistics, why develop the 30 AR when the 30 t/c out performs it?
i agree with the authur when he says to
perfect the 7.62 x 39 in an ar lower receiver.
other than that ill stick to 308 in ar. thanks
What happened to the 30Remington? Same ballistics,shoulder angle designed to feed in an automatic,and will have the same casehead as the 35 remington. Have these guys lost their mind, or are they renaming a round with the same ballistics? It has already been invented. What’s up?
Well it’s all good. But really, I’ve used 3006 and 308 since I was a kid and this rifle doesn’t compare. I’ll take the extra 500lbs of energy, except for maybe coyotes like they show, but where I hunt their not running around in big packs so one shot’ll do, hell even if they where good luck on a follow-up they make a deer look like a blind turtle. Keep what you’ve got (that works) and teach someone how to use it and love it… then take them hunting instead of shopping/comparing.