Why You Should NOT Tumble Loaded Ammunition
One of our readers asked: “Is it OK to clean live, loaded ammo in a vibratory tumbler?” The basic answer is NO, do NOT tumble live ammo in a vibratory tumbler. There are serious potential safety hazards that can result from tumbling live ammo. Since it is really NOT necessary to tumble loaded ammo, why take the risk?
Tumbling Can Alter Powder Burn Properties
The main reason to avoid tumbling loaded ammo is that tumbling can break down the powder kernels inside the case and/or alter the burn-rate retarding coatings on the outside of the kernels. This can alter the powder’s burning properties, with dangerous consequences. If you vibrate loaded rounds for a long time, you can both grind or shear the kernels and alter the kernels’ external coatings. Read the warnings on a can of powder, it says do not shake (for that reason).
While we are aware that some hand-loaders, particularly pistol shooters, tumble loaded ammo to remove residual lube or just to make their ammo nice and shiny, this is NOT a sensible procedure. RCBS and most ammo-makers specifically warn against tumbling live ammo in a vibratory tumbler. Hodgdon’s official policy is: “Completed ammo should not be tumbled. The powder will degrade and increase in burn speed.” (From Mike Daly, Customer Satisfaction Manager, Hodgdon/IMR.)
Consider this commentary from the Fr. Frog website:
Q. Is tumbling loaded ammunition dangerous?
Answer: “…Extensive tumbling can cause the breakdown of the powder grains. This would have two major effects. First, smaller grains will ignite more quickly than larger grains, and second the deterrent coating on the outside of the grains may be rubbed off and will be absent from any fractured edges which will cause the powder to burn more quickly raising pressures.
Tests run some years ago by a commercial entity did indicate that potentially dangerous changes in powder charge burning characteristics do take place after PROLONGED periods in either a vibratory or a tumbling cleaner.
The key word here is prolonged. Many manufacturers of ammunition do a final cleaning of their product either by tumbling or a vibratory process before boxing it for shipment. In no case is this allowed to exceed more than just a couple of minutes. The intent is not so much to “polish” but to remove any traces of contaminants which might in time leave marks on the finished product. There seems to be a consensus among the ammunition manufacturing engineers that a minute or two of vibratory cleaning has no discernable effect on burning rates, especially for loads that are compressed, or nearly so. However, all have emphasized the need for EXTREME CAUTION not to overdo the process.
They also pointed out that there is a considerable difference in effect on the powder charge depending on whether the process is by ‘tumbling’ or ‘vibrating’. It would appear that tumbling has less effect on the powder than vibrating, though this is mostly a matter of degree. The admonition to use EXTREME CAUTION to insure that the process never exceeds a couple of minutes applies equally to either process.”
I vehemently disagree with your premise. Geoff Beneze performed a loaded round tumbling test for various intervals, the shortest being one hour, complete with magnified pictures, over 10 years ago. The vibratory tumbled powder was virtually indistinguishable from the non-tumbled powder.
Furthermore, when you consider that, say, all Remington ammo is trucked from their single distribution warehouse to points all over the nation, and also consider that road travel imparts vibrations to the trucked ammo for hours on end, it jsut plain does not make sense.
I don’t know where Father Frog got his information. He does not give a cite.
Phil,
Others have done simple experiments and concluded that they can not see visible signs of powder changes after tumbling loaded ammo and then pulling apart the rounds. See, e.g. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=300510
But these experiments are far from comprehensive (or scientific) and rely, typically, on simple “eyeball” inspections. The “evidence” was “hey the powder pretty much looks the same (after tumbling), so it must be the same.” How many of these “home tests” tried 40 or more powders, or sent the tumbled powders to a lab for close analysis? Remember if one claims that tumbling loaded ammo is “safe”, that better apply to EVERY type of Powder, EVERY case fill percentage (load density), and EVERY tumbling interval. NONE of the “home workshop” type tests I’ve seen has sampled more than a half-dozen types of powder, and they were normally tumbled in cases with a full powder charge.
Moreover, AccurateShooter.com takes the position that ammo-makers and powder-makers are advising caution for a good reason. And we would certainly not put in print a procedure that runs contrary to manufacturers’ stated safety warnings, particularly when there really is NO GOOD REASON to tumble loaded cases other than to make them look prettier.
As one shooter posted on the Accurate Reloading Forum: “You might get by with it for years and years and then all of a sudden something happens and a gun blows up, I’ve seen it happen. It’s not worth the potential hazards. A lost eye or finger isn’t worth all the shiny brass in the world.”
Guys:
I live in Australia.
I recall a case of a rifle blow up some years ago.
The rifle was a highpower target rifle. The ammo was .308 Win with 155 grain projectiles (I believe, but may have been 144 gr projectiles).
The subsequent investigation concluded that the rifle blew up because the shooter had tumbled the ammo. The unfired, but tumbled, ammo was pulled apart and it was found that the propellent had been turned dust leading to a conclusion that the dust detonated instead of burned.
I do not know for how long the ammo was tumbled. But I don’t think it matters. What matters is that YOU SHOULD NOT REPEAT NOT TUMBLE ASSEMBLED AMMO
Why is a safety suggestion a hard thing to understand? It’s like telling someone to put on their safety glasses… all you hear is crap coming out of their mouth. But tell them their car’s headlights are on and they rush off to quickly correct the problem.
Just err on the side of caution, so we minimize the chances of wearing a piece of a someone’s firearm, newly implanted in our head or torso.
RE: Tumbling Loaded Ammo
Tue, March 2, 2010 10:04:34 AMFrom: Dave Campbell Add to Contacts
To: Dave
——————————————————————————–
It is the policy of Hodgdon Powder Co. to recommend against ever tumbling or vibrating loaded or reloaded ammunition. Vibration for even short
periods of time may degrade propellants or change their burn characteristics. Vibrating propellants may cause coatings to wear off and edges or
ends to erode.
Dave Campbell
Ballistician/ Customer Service
Hodgdon Powder Company Family of Propellants:
Hodgdon Smokeless Powders, The Brand That’s True
IMR Legendary Powders
Winchester Smokeless Powders, For Loading Professionals
Pyrodex
Triple7
Goex Black Powder
White Hots
http://www.hodgdon.com
913-362-9455 ext. 117
dcampbell@hodgdon.com
—–Original Message—–
From: Dave [mailto:holey.socks@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 4:41 PM
To: Dave Campbell
Subject: Tumbling Loaded Ammo
What stance does Hodgdon , IMR And Winchester Powders, take on the practice of tumbling ammo, after it has been loaded or reloaded??
There is an ongoing debate amongst loaders if this is recommended by powder manufactures.
Thank you for your time
Dave
holey.socks@yahoo.com
I am researching the effects/claims of polishing loaded ammunition in a quality vibratory tumbler. I am the Technical Editor of the Fifty Caliber Shooters Association publication The Very High Power and may do an article on this topic. One well known major tumbler manufacturer reports that in years of testing as long as 20 years ago they could not verify any damage or even change to the gun powder or primers when tumbled in a quality vibratory tumbler. Yet it is reported that your official website here that it does.
Your site states that putting loaded ammunition in a tumbler has the following results- “Extensive tumbling can cause the breakdown of the powder grains”.
I want to verify that this is your present position on this. That tumbling loaded ammunition in a vibratory tumbler can and does effect the gun powder in the brass case.
Could you provide me with the details of your research supporting your position of polishing loaded ammunition or has that position changed? Is there scientific support for your published remarks? Could you provide specific “peer reviewed” published reports to that fact? I have interviewed other companies and firearms writers who do not support your claim on your site. Perhaps they are wrong? Please advise. Jim Schmidt
https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2012/10/10/is-tumbling-loaded-ammo-dangerous/
Then we must accept that all powders and loaded ammunition that is trucked from location to location in bulk (not the kind found in styrofoam blocks) has degraded and thus is dangerous to use? If I take ammo I’ve loaded on a long trip and then want to shoot I better not use it?
Extremes can always be used and comments using words like “always” must then apply to everything else too.
I’d bet that were the reloading and shooting precrices of those who say something must “always” apply would be shocked to know they aren’t always following every reloading or shooting practice.
How many reloaders have not tempted fate with loads? Do you work up your loads every time you open a can of powder? I bet not. I bet that you take a can and if it’s of the same brand and type you loader er up and crank out the rounds.
I’m not advocating tumbling loaded ammo but those that want to say that something must “always” apply rarely apply many other safety precautions “always”.
Now just make sure to individually wrap each reloaded round in foam peanuts and let them float on a water bath so they don’t vibrate on the trip to where you shoot and for crying out loud, put down that mobile phone when you are near ammo, static electricity you know, like blowing up a gas station you might take out the neighborhood.
I just tumbled 50 cases yesterday, 2 of the cases I forgot to put the primers in so I dumped the powder that was in the case not knowing how much was left, actually most if not all the powder stayed in the case, but after 45 mins of tumbling the powder looked perfectly fine.
I don’t know why people are so upset over this. Some say it doesn’t matter, and some say not to. Personally, I don’t see the point. I used to reload a lot, I tumbled and cleaned cases before loading. I don’t see any reason to do it after. So what they don’t “look” like Shiney factory new rounds, but they shoot just fine. Why take the chance?