H&H Concentricity Gauge and Bullet Straightener
In our feature article on Case Neck Tools we explained the importance of case neck uniformity and reviewed the best tools for measuring case neck thickness. But having uniform case neck walls is only part of the accuracy equation. You also want your cases to exhibit minimal run-out, as measured by a precision tool. For this reason, a quality concentricity gauge belongs on your loading bench if you are looking for the Nth degree of accuracy.
We’ve worked with quite a few concentricity gauges. They all have their strengths and weaknesses, but some just didn’t perform well at all with very short cases like the 6BR and 6PPC. One of our regular readers suggested we check out the H&H Concentricity Gauge, made by Bill Herron in Oregon. So far we are very impressed. A 6BR or PPC case doesn’t tip or rock, causing the needle to jump. We were able to get good, repeatable readings off a seated bullet, which wasn’t easy at all with some of the other units. Our friend agreed with our positive assessment of the H&H, saying: “I have four concentricity gauges. Among these tools, the H&H is the least expensive and the easiest to use of those designed for loaded round measurement AND bullet straightening. It is also built like a brick. However, the Sinclair is [probably] the best for looking at the case alone due to the bearing balls and their adjustability.”
The H&H uses an indicator block to eliminate off-center indicator readings. It will accept .22 PPC through .375 length cases. A reversible spindle acts as a pilot for checking neck thickness. Bill Herron says the unit can also re-align bullets, but we didn’t try out that capability. For more info, visit the H&H Industries website, or call Bill at (541) 327-1411.
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Tags: Bullet Straightener, Case Neck, Concentricity Gauge, Run-Out
I’m sure H&H is a new sponsor, but it’s not right to give heresay automatic merit. There is still -the truth.
What the H&H actually does best is produce the LOWEST runout readings rather than actual.
[EDITOR’s NOTE: H&H is not a new sponsor, or an “old sponsor” for that matter. H&H has never paid this site one penny, nor has it supplied product in trade. We featured the unit based on the reports of a respected BR shooter who owns multiple different concentricity units, of which the H&H is one. My personal experience is that the H&H provides more repeatable readings than at least 2 “major brand” products widely sold in the industry. I can’t speak for the H&H’s claimed abilities to straighten bullets. As stated in the text, we did not examine that feature.]
Don’t believe me?
Picture a jump rope circling and pinned at both ends. If you wish to measure the greatest deviation about it’s access, you wouldn’t measure near a fixed end(you know that will present little), but instead, right in the middle..
The H&H pins the case head and bullet nose, like the jump rope ends. So indicating off the bullet will provide only a fraction of actual TIR.
The Sinclair is superior in this respect because it pins the case body(center of jump rope), allowing us to see full runout as indicated off the neck & bullet nose.
Still don’t believe me? Just compare the two…
H&H claims theirs is the only gage [sic] correctly indicating runout. Maybe they assume everyone seats bullets hard into the lands, so our case centers must float like a jump rope? No, that’s not true. It’s a misrepresentation.
I think that you may not understand why the manufacturer of the H&H has taken the approach that he has. For some background, I have four concentricity gauges including an older Sinclair that has bearing balls, that I prefer to the current model. Furthermore I have experience with another commercial straightener that Ron Hoehn sells. In my experience on PPC rounds loaded for a match rifle with a .262 neck, the readings were comparable if not identical. I have done a lot of cross-checking of the same rounds between the Sinclair and the H&H, finding that the run-out readings did correspond. (And this was also true of rounds I straightened with the H&H and then cross-checked on the Sinclair). I have taken my H&H to a benchrest match and have found it easy enough to straighten all of my loads (that were done between matches, at the range) to a maximum runout of .00075.
Three of my friends have bought the units after I lent them mine for extended evaluations, and have been happy with their results. It is unfortunate that you don’t like your unit. Mine works very well, and I find it to be very well built. I also like my Sinclair. They both have their places. The assumption made in the designs of all of the typical units that support off of the body is that the body is perfectly round in both places that it is supported. The designer of the H&H wished to have a unit that did not have that as a requirement in order to give accurate readings. I think that he met his goal. I gave the Editor his information on this unit, and I stand by what I said, all of it.
[Editor’s Note: Boyd’s point about case roundness is important. On a conventional “cradle-style” concentricity checker, such as the RCBS CaseMaster or Sinclair, if the case body is not perfectly round where the body contacts its supports, then the entire cartridge will move up and down relative to the dial indicator as the case is rotated. This in turn induces needle movement that is NOT caused by actual neck run-out or bullet run-out, but is rather a manifestation of case body out-of-roundness. (In other words a case with an out-of-round body will cause the needle to move on a CaseMaster even if the bullet and neck are, in fact, perfectly concentric.) The H&H design attempts to eliminate case body roundness as a variable in measuring neck run-out and bullet run-out. It does this by supporting the case at the base and with a female “socket” that engages the bullet near the tip.]
You guys are proving my point, and at the same time, completely missing it..
The straightest neck and perfectly seated bullets mean little if the case is crooked.
Same for case heads out of square.
What do you think happens when the round is chambered? Do you think a crooked case will allow the bullet to point straight down the bore?
The H&H ‘Neck Concentricity Only Gage'(your apparent name for it) has you fooled.
Shooters out there will figure this out, just as they deduced that your ChargeMaster testing implied better performance than actual.
Heads up
Hi,
Mike, I have to disagree with your conclusions.
First, looking at your jump rope analogy, while measuring in the exact middle will give you the largest number, measuring anywhere towards the middle will give you a reliable indication whether it’s not square. The point is to get something that’s repeatable and relatively consistent, not just something that gives you the biggest number. The important thing is that the readings will be consistent. After seeing how much deviation as recorded by the H&H will adversely affect accuracy, use that number as your standard.
Second, you missed the point others were making about the case. If there’s dent in it where it rests on the V block, it will show up on another gauge as run out, when it has nothing to do with run out. Further, if the case is crooked, as you are concerned, it will still show up on the H&H gauge. Just think about it in terms of your jump rope analogy. Again, it doesn’t matter that the reading won’t be as high as it would in the exact center. It just needs to be consistent.
-Norman
Before folks jump all over Mike, let’s acknowledge that:
– None of these gauges make it easy to distinguish parallel misalignment (bullet axis parallel to case axis, but offset) from angular (axes may cross but are not parallel).
– Different gauges will give different readings, which may vary widely depending on misalignment type, and where it is measured.
– With angular misalignment in particular, any of these gauges will give varying readings depending on where runout is measured. Imagine a bullet cocked relative to the case body, with their respective axes crossing in the neck region – this is a common situation often a result of the sizing die and maybe poor lubrication. Gauges supporting the body would show little runout near the case mouth, but more near the bullet tip. The gauge reviewed here would show more runout at the neck. I’ve never seen any published DATA addressing any of the above as it relates to accuracy, just lots of opinions.
A cartridge measuring concentric on a concentricity gauge, can still read high TIR on a runout gauge. But a cartridge measuring low TIR, is straight AND concentric.
That will be the best you can do.
I have both a Sinclair Concentricity Gauge and the Herron Concentricity Gauge and have compared the readings of concentricity side by side on .223 Rem ammo from my fouling cartridges box. The correlation between both tools is quite good. Having looked at over 80 cartridges with bullet runout between 0.006 and 0.012 I found a correlation differential of less than 0.001 between the two gauges in most cases and less than 0.002 in the rest. Both work very well measuring concentricity and bullet runout.
To me the real benefit of the H&H tool is its ability to also act as a tool to straighten bullet runout. I took bullets which were exhibiting runout in XS of 0.006 to 0.009 and brought them into my acceptable runout category of 0.004 to 0.005 for practice ammo.
I generally get about a 20% yield of a lot of 100 which goes into my fouling round box.(Breakdown is 60% is between 0.001 to 0.003 which is match ammo, 20% between 0.004 to 0.005 which is practice ammo, and 20% of 0.006 and over). The H&H tool allows me to salvage half of the practice ammo cartridges and convert them into match ammo and likewise with the fouling to practice ammo.
That soon totals the price of admission for the H&H tool.
I purchased a H&H tool a couple of years ago. I was made aware of it by one of the shooters at Douglas Ridge Rifle club in Estacada Oregon. It is a 1000 yard range that is the home of World Champion competitors. This tool is used by some of these competitors.
I am very impressed with this tool and straighten .223, .270win, and 300 RUM bullets to .001 to .002 with it. The fact that some of the best shooters around depend on it should make a point that is hard to dismiss.
What is the relationship to the squareness of the case head face and the center line of the case, if its out of square measuring concentricity means nothing except you can “cull” in groups.
If the case head face isnt square, the case must overcome this angular difference when fired and during seating of the case and bolt lugs, and any tir you corrected for unless you can guarantee its square to the case center line isnt going to change anything. Everything must be geometrically organized, concentric, square, parallel, etc and then everything else must be axially aligned too. It does no good to correct tir then place in a chamber that isnt at least at the same axially alignment as the case or better. Two ways that you could measure this is an optical comparator or a coordinate measuring machine otherwise all you are doing is sorting or “culling” for consistency.
You not really “straightening” the bullet but “bending” until the indicator reads an acceptable number.
There are two axis’s we are dealing with and these axis’s have to axially align and also be concentric. In order to do that you would have to use a die cut so that only the neck was exposed when the case was seated in the die then another die segment cut to a very close match to the neck dia with a bullet seated, rotated until the high side was acquired and then with the die case secured the die segment pushed the proper amount to align both axis’s.
Or and this method would require the optical comparator or CMM machine to accomplish, neck turn and bore the inside of the neck once the case was aligned axially and concentrically so that these two surfaces were both square and concentric to the case head face. It is a question of the egg and chicken in this case.
Either way unless you can correct all the dimensional imperfections in the case you will still have two items that arent axially aligned. I’m not saying H&H tooling isnt good or bad just that there is a lot more geometrically involved then simply pushing a bullet into an indicator reading that is acceptable.